If God created the universe is He outside it?

When someone reads my column and then links to it, I often get what is called a “ping.”   A ping is created by many websites, blogs, and news organizations when they create a link.  The ping arrives as a comment for the particular story and tells me where to find the other end of the link.   That allows me to see what others are saying about my columns and perhaps could lead to a dialogue between us or to a common bond.   Most of the time it is from like-minded believers who are commenting in their own column or blog about something I wrote.  Sometimes it is one of their readers that have put up a link in a comment to help  make a point to the author.  

One of these links led me to a devout atheist whose reader pointed to my vision “God Partially Revealed”  in response to that author’s comment that “If God created the Universe, then He must be outside of it.  That proves that God doesn’t exist because nothing can be outside of the Universe since the Universe by definition includes everything.”  (As an aside, I’ve noticed that atheists are pretty careful to use upper case G for God and H for He – Just in case?).   The atheist considered his statement pretty profound and unanswerable by believers.   Anyway, the comment by the atheist’s reader brought me a number of readers and no ugly comments, so I was appreciative.

The vision, “God Partially Revealed” and the following column “Where is God? Who What Where How?” explain it (to me) pretty well, but I thought I would talk about the atheist’s comment a little here. 

The vision clearly shows that God is everywhere at once since the entire Universe is within Him and His being filters through every atom of the Universe.   Does the atheist have a point that God could not have created the Universe because to do so would put Him outside of the Universe?   The implication is that He can’t be outside of something that includes everything, therefore our belief must be false. 

An easy answer is to say “He can do anything He wants to do.”   The latter implies that He can make a stone He can’t lift and then decide to do it anyway.  I agree with that.  Nothing we can write or say or dredge up in literature or the Bible can put any kind of limit of what God can do.  Nothing.   All powerful, He fuels the Universe.

Nor can my feeble interpretation of my visions give any real explanation or proof of what God is or can do or how He operates.   He is always in charge and can do or not do as He pleases.   He defines truth and good.  I would not try to impose my belief on you, gentle reader, nor would I want you to try to change me.   What I can do is report what I have seen and what I derived from it. 

My real answer is at the bottom, but I want to say first that God did create the Universe in what physicists call a “big bang” and so he predates the Universe and now the Universe resides in Him.   The problem for the atheist is a lack of understanding of who and what God is and where He resides.   He is timeless and so is heaven and so are our souls as explained to me in the vision of Crossing Over – Timeless Heaven.  

Taken together the two visions, “God Partially Revealed” and “Crossing Over – Timeless Heaven” reveal to me that God’s territory is a timeless place that we living cannot see, cannot detect, cannot fathom until we cross over at our earthly death.   It is like a parallel Universe, one that is both outside our own and within it at the same time. 

Unwittingly, physicists are talking more and more about multiple universes and the current fad of “string theory” lead them to believe that these parallel universes exist.  They have already universally adopted the “big bang” theory which mimics the Biblical version that God created everything out of nothing and hope the string theory or M theory or some other deriviative will take them to the “theory of everything”.

How strange for the physicists, but we knew about at least one other Universe all along, except we thought Heaven was “up there” maybe in the clouds.   Believers everywhere believe there is a heaven and that God is there and we will go there when we die.   My visions reveal that God is everywhere and when we say God is timeless, we mean it and it is a fact.  When we say He knew us from the beginning, He actually did because we were there too as part of our timeless souls in Heaven.    Heaven is not “up there” but is actually a timeless place parallel to ours.  It is all around us and we can’t detect it, but it is real. 

So God can create the Universe – our Universe – from outside of it and be outside of it even now but inside of it as well.   Why?  Because His Universe is the Universe of Heaven which is different from ours and is timeless, much like the photons in my physics blog “Quantum Weirdness“.  (Quantum Weirdness is based entirely on insights and words of knowledge gained from my visions but explained in a purely scientific way).    Any reader with a scientific interest may want to read the “Does Time Exist?” column there after reading the Changing Over – Timeless Heaven and also “Are you and I already in Heaven?” columns here.

Confused?   Not as confused as the atheist’s comment. 

My answer to the atheist’s comment:

God’s universe and our Universe are two different universes so He can be both outside of this Universe and inside of it.   Just the same, God is our Universe’s creator and He is in possession and control of it.   All we know of His other universe, the one we call Heaven, is what the Bible tells us and what God’s gift of visions to ordinary people like me tell us.  

Grace and Peace,

Oldtimer

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11 responses to “If God created the universe is He outside it?

  1. If God can do the logically impossible, why can he not make the universe completely good, and free from evil, yet still allow us Free Will?

    Most Theologians accept the idea that God can only do what is logically possible for God to do.
    Ie, God cannot not be God,God cannot create something that he cannot control ect

  2. I can’t speak for God, but one problem is that what is “good” for me may not be “good” for you or any one of my many neighbors. Our earthly domain is not quite big enough for all of us to have the same good things and the gift of free will without some consequences would be one of those logically impossible things you speak of.

    So maybe God decided that free will would be limited only by the laws of physics (which He created) and limited to some extent by our own internal decisions and developing conscience.

    As a consequence when my neighbor decides to invade my home and destroy it or one of my family, it is a consequence of the neighbor’s free will, evil that it is.

    The result is that not everything is good. The laws of physics and chemistry, etc. help drive our weather patterns and define the consequenc of a driving mistake. It is pretty obvious that the laws of physics win out when we decide to jump off a building or accidentally drive into someone elses car, no matter how “good” we try to be.

    When someone tells me that God can’t make a stone that He can’t lift, I respond with “yes he can. ” Then, if He wants to, He lifts it anyway. ” Whether He wants to is His business, not mine.

    The fact is, it is not realistic to speculate along those lines, but athiests often try to push illogical acts before believers as “proof” that God can’t be God and therefore there is no God. These proofs are just idle speculation as we have no control over what God wants to do or how He handles situations other than knowledge that He listens to prayer and often responds to it.

    Disease and tragic accidents and weather/earth shaking disasters are a consequence of His gift of life, free will and unalterable physical laws.

    I am a firm believer that God is always in control (or at least as much as He feels He needs to be), and our small minds just don’t have the big picture that He has. When a friend suffers from cancer, it is not that God is not in control, but that the cancer is responding to a mistake in cell division that is continuously replicating.

    Cell division is part of the way God designed living things, great and small. Cell division and dna replication are an indisputable part of life and we were never designed to be perfect. Things are always breaking down inside and parts wearing out and many repairs and mechanisms are at work fixing things, but never quite enough.

    We all wear out in the blink of an eye compared to eternity awaiting. What consequence is it that we go sooner than later? Nothing in the face of eternity. It doen’t make our families feel any better, as it is natural to grieve and ask:”why?”.

    I also believe that He changes His mind in response to prayer, something many believers think is impossible for various reasons.

    Thanks for dropping by,

    Oldtimer

  3. If God chooses for the Universe to have evil (while a relative concept, you can choose evil as defined by the bible if you like), yet he can make it so there is no evil, then he is simply cruel, displaying no love for his creation.

    “I also believe that He changes His mind in response to prayer, something many believers think is impossible for various reasons.”
    A timeless God (by the way, capital as God is a name, whether real or not) cannot change his/her mind. He/she already knows that you will pray, so should already have made his/her decision.

    If God chose evil to be defined by the laws of the universe, that still means it was his own choice. If he can do the logically impossible, and he defines the laws of physics anyway, then there is no limiting factor to his choice of “evil” being present in the universe. If God has made sure there is no evil in the universe, then Christianity must be untrue.

    “Cell division is part of the way God designed living things, great and small. Cell division and dna replication are an indisputable part of life and we were never designed to be perfect.”

    But it doesn’t have to be that way. If God made the universe, then he chose for things to be that way. Thus choosing suffering, choosing cruelty, choosing pain, when he does not have to.

    “Disease and tragic accidents and weather/earth shaking disasters are a consequence of His gift of life, free will and unalterable physical laws.”

    Once again, if God can achieve the logically impossible, then he can make these tragic events not occur while still giving us life, free will and physics laws.

    Talk to any university (a legitimate one) trained Theologian, they will agree that God can only do what is logically possible for God to do. God cannot do the logically impossible, as if he/she could, there would be no evil in the world.

  4. “The fact is, it is not realistic to speculate along those lines, but athiests often try to push illogical acts before believers as “proof” that God can’t be God and therefore there is no God. ”

    I agree, it is not disproving the existence of God, as believers reply with the statement as you have done, that God can do the logically impossible. However, many overlook the issue that if God can do the logically impossible he can make free will and pure goodness (lack of evil) exist in the universe. Either:
    God can, but chooses not to
    God can’t, thus is not truly omnipotent, rather only omnipotent to the extent which it is logically possible for him/her to be.

  5. (I’ve edited this slightly to make some items clearer on Aug 31 pm.)

    I’m not sure where evil came from. I do think it is a consequence of the free will gift. I do not attribute it as one of God’s creations even though I acknowledge that He created everything, but I think it is mostly physical things He created. Stars, worlds, plants, animals and people too, plus a few gifts here and there, such as what Christians recognize as the Holy Spirit. I’m not sure if the intangible things like good and evil are part of it. (“And God saw that it was good”). If He *saw* it was good does not imply He created good (nor evil). I say that God defines Good and Truth, (meaning characteristics of God) but not that God created good and truth, nor evil.

    My concept of evil is that evil is the absence of God. When a person acting within his free will doesn’t recognize within him/herself His commandments, then he/she has pushed away God from his mind and only evil is left, though usually in varying degrees, but sometimes pure evil. I’ve known a few people like that.

    People such as yourself that have rejected the reality of God are not evil because of it – as long as the commandments are still followed (though not necessarily as commandments but as good things to do or not do). I don’t intend to imply that non-belivers are any less good than believers. Many, actually the vast majority, of athiets fall in the good category (even the very good category) and exercize the principles of the conscience within and the willingness to follow the commandments we recognize as just natural goodness and the right thing to do.

    I suggest that there is a difference in rejecting God and there being an absence of God. Even through rejection, God is still there. We can’t just banish God as we have no power over Him.

    But in breaking the commandments, there is a spiral toward an emptying out of the internal Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit that is in all mankind (he/she), even athiests, like it or not. (It is the Holy Spirt within a non-believer that convicts them to belief -no one else can do it. That implies that the Holy Spirit is in everyone, even you). Rejoice!

    I hope I did not imply that weather events such as tornadoes are “evil”. I only meant that they act independently of God’s influence as He seems to choose not to interfere. They *know not* God and behave as if they have their own free will (though we both know that things like weather are mindless).

    I only mean that God does not push waves here and there and micro-manage even our weather. It is a habit of many religious people however to attribute good weather to God, but it is just another way of paying homage to Him, not a statement that He personally delivered it for us.

    Going over and over the “logically impossible” implications are of no use. I suggest that God likely does what He wants to do, not what is possible for Him to do. Why would God choose to do something illogical? Seems like He doesn’t. Why would He choose to do *all* of the things that are possible for him to do when they include things that He does not choose to do? Seems like He doesn’t. Why do we think we know what God’s limitations are or aren’t? We don’t. Seems like God does whatever He wants and whenever He wants and we can only speculate from the few clues we have. It is not my place to put limits on God or give Him attributes He chooses not to have.

    All I’m reporting here (this site) is what I have experienced and what I believe.

    You said:
    “A timeless God (by the way, capital as God is a name, whether real or not) cannot change his/her mind. He/she already knows that you will pray, so should already have made his/her decision ”

    You sound like my bible study teacher. Is your name really Bill? As a Presbyterian, we are told that everything is predestined and our teacher is quick to use the double and triple predestination routines when necessary. Is ok.

    What I believe is that God does not micro manage our lives. Why should he bother? He set everthing in motion and has moved back and forth though time and the ages enough to set the mileposts much like a navigation system on an airplane. He may well have planned everthing out and fixed it through history. However the fly in that ointment is that He also gave us free will.

    That means to me that we can vary off course as much as we want. We start out here, supposed to go through there and end of over there. But we often choose a different path. Sometimes He may step in to correct our path and sometimes He changes our path in response to prayer.

    My point is He listens to our prayers and sometimes answers by major changes to the waypoints he has already laid out.

    Grace and Peace,

    Jim

  6. The universe is infinite. The absence of something is nothing. But even nothing is something. God is infinite too.

  7. Hi I am writing an essay on the teleological argument and found the above comment about God existing outside the universe I was hoping to use this as an example but am not sure how to reference it or if I am allowed to, please let me not who say the quote if possible. Thanks Anna Ormandy

  8. Anna,

    I don’t think I can find the originator of that comment any more. Its been over a year and I have no links to it.

    I tried this: I went to Google and put in the phrase: “If God Created the Universe” and got back thousands of references to that quote (actually 1.6 million). Perhaps if you put in more of the comment exactly as worded, you may come up with it.

    I really think that is a common “gotcha” phrase used by that community in an attempt to discredit believers. In other words, the athiest that used it was not the originator either. It is just part of their arsenal, poorly armed at best.

    Grace and Peace

    Jim

  9. Anon,

    God did not create a world with evil in it. When he created the World it was perfectly good. Evil exist in the world because sin exist in the world. And sin exist in the world because man chose to sin.

    If I understand you correctly then it is your belief that God must be cruel for allowing the world to have evil in it, and if he is so all-powerful why doesn’t he just destroy all evil. But what you are unable to see is my friend is that if he is to do that he will have no choice but to destroy all humanity as well.

    That is because all men are evil from birth. Because we are all born as sinners. But God loves us and chose not to destroy us but instead he sent his son Jesus to take away our sins and to destroy our sins in his bodily death and to give us new life by his resurrection. That way we are no longer evil sinners in his sight but Righteous through Christ.

    Something else to know is that God does not intend for us to live in this “Evil” Universe for ever. It is his plan to create a new Universe which is incapable of corruption so sin will not be able to enter as it did with this universe but this will happen when he sees it fit. In the meantime he allows us to live in an evil world to develop our characters and to teach us lessons we would have never learn in a perfect world (example we will not be able to fully appreciate goodness if we do not know evil – That’s my example by the way).

    Finally on the subject of logic. To say that God can only do what is logical for him to do raises the question.. whose logic? The logic of the theologians? Well if so that is to assume that the logic of the Theologians is the only Logic or the Logic of all logics. But God himself said that his thoughts are higher than our thoughts and his ways are not our ways, which to me seems to imply he follows a different set of logic that is unknown to man.

    I mean who created human logic? Is it not the minds of human beings? But who created the Minds of humans? Is it not God? How then can the one who created the mind be subject to something created by the mind?

    This statement is similar to an ant saying.. “A Bird can only do what is logically possible for a Bird to do. And since flying to is not logical to us then Birds must not exist”

    God is much greater and infinitely more DIFFERENT from man, and we should not presume to know how to measure his capabilities especially when the measuring stick used is feeble human logic.

    It was nice chatting with you Anon. I suspect you will be replying with your disagreements. So I’ll lookout for it, if not we may chat on a different topic or post.

  10. In Genesis 1:3-5, it says: And God said, “Let there be light” and there was light. God saw that the light was good and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day” and the darkness He called “night”. And there was evening and there was morning – the first day.
    Notice here that all that took place was the creation of light and the separation of the darkness from the light. So, where did God put the darkness if He separated it from the light? But notice also, that in these verses there is no mention of there being any planets or stars to distinguish day from night, as there are in the fourth creative day, when God made the sun and moon to rule over night and day as we now it. We cannot, therefore confuse this act of creating light and the separation of the two with the creating of sun and moon to give the greater and lesser light on earth. We are aware that the universe is continually expanding in size, so it has to have somewhere to expand into. This clearly indicates that there has to be space outside, or beyond the universe for the universe to expand into. This would then bring to mind that eternity must be outside the universe. as eternity has no end, then the universe is relatively small in comparison to the universe. Try to imagine seeing the universe as a little black circle in eternity and for the sake of clarity, picture eternity as white, doesn’t this give some idea as to how God was able to separate the darkness from the light by sealing the darkness within the universe.

    But what of the evening and morning mentioned in Genesis 1: 3-5? which clearly marks the first day? 2 Peter 3:8 says: “But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years are like a day”. From this we can discern that this creative day in which God created light and separated it from darkness was “LIKE” a thousand years. (The mention of the word ‘like’ on these two occasions seems to imply that maybe it was or wasn’t exactly.) but however long it was, it was classed by God as a day. As God is Omnipresent, then the whole of eternity would be lit up by His Glory, this shows that there can never be an end to God who is eternal. When Satan was cast out of Heaven, he was confined within the universe, yet another way of separating Light from darkness. When Satan is removed from all existence then God will allow His Glorious light to shine everywhere and darkness will become extinct. Revelation 21:1-5, 22,23.
    Consider also, what God said to Adam and Eve concerning the eating of the forbidden fruit, God told them that, in the day they ate the fruit they would surely die. Adam lived on for many hundreds of years after that, dying at the ripe old age of 930, 60 years short of the thousand year day of the Lord. No one, not even Methuselah has ever lived for a thousand years.
    I have read testimonies of people who have died and come back to life to tell of outer body experiences. Many speak of travelling through a long tunnel which has a bright light at the end of it an incredibly fast pace. Some who have travelled the full length of that tunnel said they came to a place that was brilliantly white, I believe that journey to be one that takes our inner spirit across the universe to the eternity beyond. To give you an example of this from scripture, the book of Daniel, chapter 9 contains the words of Daniels prayer, beginning at verse 4. But look what Daniel says in verses 20-23. Even before Daniel had finished saying his prayer, the angel Gabriel appears with the answer to that prayer. Gabriel had come all the way from Heaven, which is outside the universe in less time than it took Daniel to utter that prayer. In verse 23, Gabriel even tells Daniel that, “As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you. Now I ask you, how fast is that? that’s even quicker than an email to the person in the next room. Consider the speed of this angel in comparison to how long it takes light to travel from certain stars out there, to earth. I hope this will give you something to think about and open your eyes to the awesomeness of God. May He bless you with eyes of enlightenment and understanding. Amen.

  11. those who don’t know god are evil??
    Is the only thing keeping you from raping and murdering and stealing fear of God’s wrath?
    I know I am good to others because of empathy and shared interests. It is favorable to be treated well by others, and others would prefer to be treated the same. Not fo fear of God.

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